I currently drive a mid 2000s Ford truck, which runs great and meets my needs, but lately I got interested in minivans/people carriers. I pretty quickly realized that newer vehicles seem to not just record, but export a lot of driving data.
The minivan market is small. There are really only 4-5 available and every single one sends telemetry data from the car and makes it hard/impossible to opt out of selling your data. Additionally, without pretty extensive work there is no means of physically disabling the telemetry, which forces you to trust they'll honor your opt out request (vs re-enabling it with some update).
I'm clearly in the vast minority on this, but it's so frustrating that there are no options beyond buying and installing a third-party bypass to disable this type of tracking. Worse, I'm aware that the absence of data is data itself. Is my insurance going raise my rates because my vehicle won't provide telemetry for them to buy?
Ford until recently sold a minivan that was ugly as sin (looked like an '87 Vanagon) because it was a panel van with seats added. They are popular with the campervan community.
As it was essentially a commercial vehicle meant for upfitters turning them into work vans for electricians and plumbers, it would probably be easiest of all to disable telemetry.
From what I can find, permanently disabling FordPass at the hardware level is as simple as unplugging the cell modem or pulling its fuse.
I have the Ford Transit Connect "Wagon". It's a 2016 model with no internet connectivity. It can fit a double mattress in the back and is tall enough to sit up on the bed, unlike nearly every SUV. I cannot recommend it enough for an everyday vehicle that doubles as a camper.
Of course, Ford discontinued this model in North America because their margins are better on trucks and SUVs.
As for the aesthetics, we really like it. It's certainly a darn sight better looking than a truck or SUV, which are all aggressive-looking pedestrian killers.
If you don't mind used, the Ford Transit Connect Wagon is an excellent option for an everyday vehicle that doubles as a camper. We have one and love it. It fits a double mattress with plenty of headroom room to sit up in bed. Ford discontinued it in 2023, hence the used requirement, but I believe you can turn off the internet connectivity on that model. We have a 2016 model (still going strong after 150,000km!) which has no internet connectivity, thankfully.
That is interesting that they fail safe and don't just brick the car though. Maybe you can still go with a newer car but just wrap the antennae in foil or maybe just unplug it.
if an owner decides they are uncomfortable with the data sharing described within them, they are faced with (arguably) unfair choices:
- 01 accept the agreements regardless of their concerns
- 02 stop using their car's connected-vehicle features - which includes remote start, the app, and other very useful features
- 03 stop using the vehicle entirely
Easy, I take #2. Is that it? This whole time I thought the article was talking about telemetry the car sends regardless.
I have essentially gone with option 2 in my Audi A3. Every time I turn the car on, it puts up a dialog that warns me that I've made the terrible, terrible decision to not allow remote data and forces me to say, "no, do not turn it on for me now," before I can do anything else on the screen. Every, single, time.
This, but worse, happened with my inlaws when they purchased a new Lexus (IIRC, a 2025 RX350). It has whatever kind of built in navigation & traffic feature but they wanted to use Android Auto. You can do that, but not until after you go through Lexus' vehicle/driver registration process to enable their built in system. If you don't, not only will neither AA nor CarPlay work, but if you try to use the built in nav it will fail with a superimposed modal after a couple of minutes to nag you into creating an account.
Disappointing but not surprising. Those touchscreen interfaces are usually full of nags. I liked the Versa I rented recently cause its "low-end" radio system was the only thing that let me listen to the damn radio without jumping through hoops.
I've thought about what I can possibly do if I ever need to buy a modern car. Bring my own cell phone tower spoofer? Threaten to not buy the car if they don't disconnect the antennas first?
It's good that these things are starting to catch the public's interest. Gamers' Nexus' exposé on LG TVs. The lawsuits against car manufacturers for selling driving data (indirectly) to insurance companies. The pushback against Flock. I wonder what else is needed to actually move the needle globally.
I see a good sign in that Gen Alpha seems to find using disconnected devices to be trendy. I hope it's a trend that stays long term.
Hope to see a new market for disabling telemetry and phonehome features from cars. It should be legal to do so, if you own the car I suppose. I'm thinking that rigth now few pople even know how much spying their new car does to them but this will change and as awareness grows more and more people will want to do it.
> As one notable exception, Honda improved its data collection practices to prevent sending precise geolocation to a third party associated with user tracking.
I already like Honda and own models before they were connected to the cell network. But they are still not 100% there current models:
> Amplitude received from HondaLink: VIN, Location. Cross-context tracking: Amplitude received the VIN plus Location from HondaLink — an unresettable identifier tied directly to other personal data.
They are so close they should say "fuck it, we're going to be different, we'll disable all the crap" and then market the heck out of it.
I was gifted a 90's ford pickup from a family member and plan to get caught up on maintenance and keep it forever. It runs fine and has been a good project. No telemetry and easy to work on.
I'm sure that will go about as well as protecting the privacy of individuals in the face of "but the CHILDREN!" age verification.
In-vehicle monitoring allows car manufacturers to remind the user to buckle up, keep their eyes on the road, stay off their phones, remind them to take breaks, turn the radio down in tense traffic, remind the driver to take a breath based on increased heart rate to minimize road rage, etc.
Heck, we could really reduce lack of seatbelt related injuries and deaths if we could eliminate the 'drive' function while seatbelts are not properly worn (which we can now check with our AI cameras )
The ongoing theme of all these responses was shifting the blame to the consumer.
As expected. I think consumers also need to push back on these practices, but the problem is, majority of consumers are tech savy but not privacy savy.
It looks like lobbying for increased consumer protection laws. Either you put on a suit and talk to politicians, or you work with and donate to groups that do.
Look at the options on the table for you: Either do nothing and buy new cars, or buy an older car and maintain it for the rest of your life. There is no option C, as you note.
Interesting and thank you! Just like I'd like a "dumb" tv that I could just plug a Linux machine running Kodi into, I'd like a car that was 100% free from smart features, yet gave me the hooks to power any of the systems with my own software/hardware.
The closest thing is just any old basic obdii and that's it ICE car, where you rip out the oem radio and now have your power taps to do all sorts of fun hacker projects within that new found standard sized void in the dash.
They say their vehicles have no modem by default, only leaving it as an option for fleet users. They also have no infotainment system to contain any sort of camera or microphone.
IIRC, they don't have a cellular radio in the vehicle (or even a FM radio). All the connectivity is done via Bluetooth with a mobile app.
It's been a while since I read up on them and things might have changed, but I have a lot respect for what they're doing. Full embracing right to repair and customer privacy when the entire industry is moving at lightning speed in the opposite direction.
Aren't their companies that are doing their telemetry over bluetooth bridge to phone' internet? Not saying slate necessarily does, but it's certainly an available exfil surface, especially if there's a 'manage your slate vehicle' app.
DMCA needs to be repealed or at least radically changed. Currently it's used as a cudgel by manufacturers to prevent customers from modifying the software in the stuff they buy. Legislation that requires vendors to provide documentation and stuff like "right to repair" would also go a long way.
While the researchers noted Tesla as having privacy options that can be enabled in the car’s settings, they didn’t seem to test how this changes the # of ATA results. Would have been interesting to see how enabling privacy features changes things.
This was taken while the data privacy option was enabled. An employee going against policy and sharing it in slack for non-work related reasons does not change whether or not the toggle actually stops x camera from sending data back to the mothership.
I don't trust any of my devices anymore (including/especially my car). At the very least I figure that they're spying on me. In the most extreme cases, such as Israel's terrorist pager attack, they may even kill you.
I wonder if this is going to create a market for older tech/vehicles that were made prior to ease-of-malware integration? I imagine some sort of cyberpunk future where people are scouring landfills for old 16-bit video game console chips that haven't been backdoored.
Wouldn't be surprised if in a few decades you see the ultra elite start favoring older maybe early 2010s at most cars. The risk surface of a modern car is astounding. I mean cellular connection and drive by wire, screw planting a car bomb, you just steer it off a cliff from your arm chair halfway across the world and it looks like an honest accident to boot. The old cars on the other hand are airgapped. You actually need physical access to sabotage them. Risk surface is so much lower.
I feel seen. I used to think rms was just a crank, but maybe he was right all along: I increasingly treat any closed-source software (and even some open-source--vscode for instance) as hostile and untrusted.
When I buy an EV, one of the first things I intend to do is disable or block the chips using Wi-Fi and/or cellular from broadcasting further. If that means a faraday shield around the computers in question, so be it.
Everything I need can be handled via CarPlay or physical dials/buttons in the vehicle. All this surveillance - on post-COVID priced vehicles no less, averaging ~$50k - is absurd, and I refuse to engage with it.
72 comments:
I currently drive a mid 2000s Ford truck, which runs great and meets my needs, but lately I got interested in minivans/people carriers. I pretty quickly realized that newer vehicles seem to not just record, but export a lot of driving data.
The minivan market is small. There are really only 4-5 available and every single one sends telemetry data from the car and makes it hard/impossible to opt out of selling your data. Additionally, without pretty extensive work there is no means of physically disabling the telemetry, which forces you to trust they'll honor your opt out request (vs re-enabling it with some update).
I'm clearly in the vast minority on this, but it's so frustrating that there are no options beyond buying and installing a third-party bypass to disable this type of tracking. Worse, I'm aware that the absence of data is data itself. Is my insurance going raise my rates because my vehicle won't provide telemetry for them to buy?
> Is my insurance going raise my rates because my vehicle won't provide telemetry for them to buy?
Next step...tools to reenable telemetry and poison with synthetic but plausible data crafted to reduce your rates
Ford until recently sold a minivan that was ugly as sin (looked like an '87 Vanagon) because it was a panel van with seats added. They are popular with the campervan community.
As it was essentially a commercial vehicle meant for upfitters turning them into work vans for electricians and plumbers, it would probably be easiest of all to disable telemetry.
From what I can find, permanently disabling FordPass at the hardware level is as simple as unplugging the cell modem or pulling its fuse.
I have the Ford Transit Connect "Wagon". It's a 2016 model with no internet connectivity. It can fit a double mattress in the back and is tall enough to sit up on the bed, unlike nearly every SUV. I cannot recommend it enough for an everyday vehicle that doubles as a camper.
Of course, Ford discontinued this model in North America because their margins are better on trucks and SUVs.
As for the aesthetics, we really like it. It's certainly a darn sight better looking than a truck or SUV, which are all aggressive-looking pedestrian killers.
That's the one.
It's reminiscent of a time when vans were vans — but it shares most of its parts with the Focus so should be relatively easy to maintain and repair.
If you don't mind used, the Ford Transit Connect Wagon is an excellent option for an everyday vehicle that doubles as a camper. We have one and love it. It fits a double mattress with plenty of headroom room to sit up in bed. Ford discontinued it in 2023, hence the used requirement, but I believe you can turn off the internet connectivity on that model. We have a 2016 model (still going strong after 150,000km!) which has no internet connectivity, thankfully.
I know some models of Ford allow you to pull the modem out. It doesn't even nag you about a connection problem.
By a slightly used one that has a 3g modem. My 2018 car no longer can phone home.
That is interesting that they fail safe and don't just brick the car though. Maybe you can still go with a newer car but just wrap the antennae in foil or maybe just unplug it.
> absence of data is data itself
oh that is endless.. if you are aware enough to do something about telemetry IMHO do that and don't obsess about loose ends.
I wonder how easy it would be to spoof the data sent back. Either with SQL injections, LLM prompt modification, or just thousands of goatse images.
And risk having lawyers after you?
I have essentially gone with option 2 in my Audi A3. Every time I turn the car on, it puts up a dialog that warns me that I've made the terrible, terrible decision to not allow remote data and forces me to say, "no, do not turn it on for me now," before I can do anything else on the screen. Every, single, time.
This, but worse, happened with my inlaws when they purchased a new Lexus (IIRC, a 2025 RX350). It has whatever kind of built in navigation & traffic feature but they wanted to use Android Auto. You can do that, but not until after you go through Lexus' vehicle/driver registration process to enable their built in system. If you don't, not only will neither AA nor CarPlay work, but if you try to use the built in nav it will fail with a superimposed modal after a couple of minutes to nag you into creating an account.
Disappointing but not surprising. Those touchscreen interfaces are usually full of nags. I liked the Versa I rented recently cause its "low-end" radio system was the only thing that let me listen to the damn radio without jumping through hoops.
Like #2 prevents the spying. Let's ask some smart TV brands executives their opinion on the matter.
"We own the infotainment system"
I've thought about what I can possibly do if I ever need to buy a modern car. Bring my own cell phone tower spoofer? Threaten to not buy the car if they don't disconnect the antennas first?
It's good that these things are starting to catch the public's interest. Gamers' Nexus' exposé on LG TVs. The lawsuits against car manufacturers for selling driving data (indirectly) to insurance companies. The pushback against Flock. I wonder what else is needed to actually move the needle globally.
I see a good sign in that Gen Alpha seems to find using disconnected devices to be trendy. I hope it's a trend that stays long term.
Smart TVs need wifi to be smart though. The cars have cell modems.
Hope to see a new market for disabling telemetry and phonehome features from cars. It should be legal to do so, if you own the car I suppose. I'm thinking that rigth now few pople even know how much spying their new car does to them but this will change and as awareness grows more and more people will want to do it.
I'd rather see it as a standard feature than as a new market.
> As one notable exception, Honda improved its data collection practices to prevent sending precise geolocation to a third party associated with user tracking.
I know what my next car will be.
I already like Honda and own models before they were connected to the cell network. But they are still not 100% there current models:
> Amplitude received from HondaLink: VIN, Location. Cross-context tracking: Amplitude received the VIN plus Location from HondaLink — an unresettable identifier tied directly to other personal data.
They are so close they should say "fuck it, we're going to be different, we'll disable all the crap" and then market the heck out of it.
Ha ha, you fools! No one is collecting my data from my 22-year-old Scion while I drive past Flock cameras every day.
Wait...
There’s “oh he’s at the grocery store” data,
and then there’s “he’s driving in a way we don’t like, let’s make him pay more for his insurance” data.
Don't forget the banal in comparison "we've locked him out of hardware already installed in the car with a perpetual software license check"
I was gifted a 90's ford pickup from a family member and plan to get caught up on maintenance and keep it forever. It runs fine and has been a good project. No telemetry and easy to work on.
This seems like something that needs legislation to address.
I'm sure that will go about as well as protecting the privacy of individuals in the face of "but the CHILDREN!" age verification.
In-vehicle monitoring allows car manufacturers to remind the user to buckle up, keep their eyes on the road, stay off their phones, remind them to take breaks, turn the radio down in tense traffic, remind the driver to take a breath based on increased heart rate to minimize road rage, etc.
Heck, we could really reduce lack of seatbelt related injuries and deaths if we could eliminate the 'drive' function while seatbelts are not properly worn (which we can now check with our AI cameras )
What are you some kind of anti-safe-driving nut?
Until people care about this, there is no reason for our representatives to limit it.
Just like video store rental history, I bet they'll start caring about privacy if/when it begins affecting them personally
good luck!
sadly, politicians are very happy about the centralization of power... they are the same team with the corporations.
The ongoing theme of all these responses was shifting the blame to the consumer.
As expected. I think consumers also need to push back on these practices, but the problem is, majority of consumers are tech savy but not privacy savy.
I'd love to push back, I'm not sure what that looks like though. I can't even get an open source/open hardware phone that's decent, let alone a car.
It looks like lobbying for increased consumer protection laws. Either you put on a suit and talk to politicians, or you work with and donate to groups that do.
Look at the options on the table for you: Either do nothing and buy new cars, or buy an older car and maintain it for the rest of your life. There is no option C, as you note.
For my part, I will not be purchasing a new car until they bring back physical controls and dump the spyware.
You might want to check out Slate. It's about the closest thing to an open vehicle platform I can imagine.
Interesting and thank you! Just like I'd like a "dumb" tv that I could just plug a Linux machine running Kodi into, I'd like a car that was 100% free from smart features, yet gave me the hooks to power any of the systems with my own software/hardware.
The closest thing is just any old basic obdii and that's it ICE car, where you rip out the oem radio and now have your power taps to do all sorts of fun hacker projects within that new found standard sized void in the dash.
Does Slate actually make any statements about the level of telematics/surveillance in their vehicles?
They say their vehicles have no modem by default, only leaving it as an option for fleet users. They also have no infotainment system to contain any sort of camera or microphone.
They do have a backup camera.
IIRC, they don't have a cellular radio in the vehicle (or even a FM radio). All the connectivity is done via Bluetooth with a mobile app.
It's been a while since I read up on them and things might have changed, but I have a lot respect for what they're doing. Full embracing right to repair and customer privacy when the entire industry is moving at lightning speed in the opposite direction.
Aren't their companies that are doing their telemetry over bluetooth bridge to phone' internet? Not saying slate necessarily does, but it's certainly an available exfil surface, especially if there's a 'manage your slate vehicle' app.
DMCA needs to be repealed or at least radically changed. Currently it's used as a cudgel by manufacturers to prevent customers from modifying the software in the stuff they buy. Legislation that requires vendors to provide documentation and stuff like "right to repair" would also go a long way.
> I'm not sure what that looks like though
Two wheels and some impressive leg muscles !
Using a smart phone doesn't make someone tech savvy.
While the researchers noted Tesla as having privacy options that can be enabled in the car’s settings, they didn’t seem to test how this changes the # of ATA results. Would have been interesting to see how enabling privacy features changes things.
I wouldn't trust anything Tesla says:
https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens...
This was taken while the data privacy option was enabled. An employee going against policy and sharing it in slack for non-work related reasons does not change whether or not the toggle actually stops x camera from sending data back to the mothership.
The grandparent comment doesn't talk about anything Tesla (the company) says. They are sharing findings from independent researchers.
Still driving my GR Corolla with the data communications module fuse pulled.
Such a fun car! It's my first fun car and oh man what a toy.
Really? I’ve never heard a Corolla be considered a fun car. It’s a point a to b car afaik.
Not to hate on your experience! They surely are reliable though.
"GR" is the important detail. That means it's AWD with a stickshift and 300hp engine. Not my favorite anyway but yeah, it's not a regular Corolla.
GR is gazoo racing, the Toyota performance line. From what I know it’s not just a badge.
What is the situation like for people who rip out the entertainment system out of older cars and install Android Auto? How "bad" is that?
And this is without even looking at any Chinese manufactured vehicles...
...Adobe? What interest do they have in data harvesting so much from vehicles?
I don't trust any of my devices anymore (including/especially my car). At the very least I figure that they're spying on me. In the most extreme cases, such as Israel's terrorist pager attack, they may even kill you.
I wonder if this is going to create a market for older tech/vehicles that were made prior to ease-of-malware integration? I imagine some sort of cyberpunk future where people are scouring landfills for old 16-bit video game console chips that haven't been backdoored.
Wouldn't be surprised if in a few decades you see the ultra elite start favoring older maybe early 2010s at most cars. The risk surface of a modern car is astounding. I mean cellular connection and drive by wire, screw planting a car bomb, you just steer it off a cliff from your arm chair halfway across the world and it looks like an honest accident to boot. The old cars on the other hand are airgapped. You actually need physical access to sabotage them. Risk surface is so much lower.
I feel seen. I used to think rms was just a crank, but maybe he was right all along: I increasingly treat any closed-source software (and even some open-source--vscode for instance) as hostile and untrusted.
I was kinda wondering the same. Only issue will be when insurance companies refuse to insure you because they can't get the "commonly available" data.
Good point, the best bet is probably to move to a walkable city and get an e-bike that you put together yourself.
When I buy an EV, one of the first things I intend to do is disable or block the chips using Wi-Fi and/or cellular from broadcasting further. If that means a faraday shield around the computers in question, so be it.
Everything I need can be handled via CarPlay or physical dials/buttons in the vehicle. All this surveillance - on post-COVID priced vehicles no less, averaging ~$50k - is absurd, and I refuse to engage with it.
Some cars you can just pull the fuse on the ECU with the modem.
It's so annoying, actually. I’d rather not switch to a newer car because of it.
I hate everything about newer cars except for the power/efficiency. And luckily I don't drive enough to care about that.
Not to take away from the point but wow absolute ai slop of a website
I think it does take away from the point. I could not be bothered trying to filter the information out of whatever this llm layout is.
Just read the paper instead: https://automatictransmission.khoury.northeastern.edu/paper....